Calcifiying discs

RDavidP · #1 10-27-2010, 10:09 PM

First off, don't worry none of my three have this, and

that they don't.

The reason why I am interested in knowing about it is because we took Dumbledore in not just because of almost non-stop diarehea but because all of a sudden he was dragging his back legs. Dumbledore's x-ray Monday morning showed he had some calcifiying discs, which was one of the reasons why he all of a sudden no longer walk with his back legs. We did not enquire further about what could be done to treat it or correct it because the rest of the x-ray and full blood work showed how far the lymphoma had progressed. If we had not put him down Monday morning, it still most likely would have been sometime this week or over this coming weekend due to the lymphoma causing organ failure, suffocation, or other nasty thngs.

Dumbledore had not had any back problems before, never injured it, and we have been carefull about him jumping and with stairs. We either picked him up or taught him to use the ramps. I believe there is some evidence that lymphoma can cause bone calcification (one of the few things on lymphoma I had not researched much of), and if so is what most likely caused Dumbledore's disc calcification.

What are the other causes of disc calcification and how can it be treated?

areese · #2 10-27-2010, 10:25 PM

From what I understand, calcifications in a doxie's spine are quite common. Something that goes along with the dwarfing gene that makes them so short legged and cute also causes premature aging of the discs and they get brittle. calcifications in and of themselves do not cause paralysis. A ruptured or compressed disc does that. Research shows that most often the discs that DO rupture are not the ones that are calcified. Simple x-rays aren't the way to diagnose a disc problem for that reason. A herniation can only be seen in an mri or ct scan or myleogram (I'm spelling that wrong I am sure). You can't treat calcifications...it's just part of their genetics.
Nothing can be done to for sure prevent calcifications. Or really, not herniations either. My dog Laika had a ruptured disc (had surgery). She did and does agility, although the jumping is very low and she doesn't do stairs but did sometimes jump on and off the couch. The actual activity that ruptured it was her digging like a maniac under the edge of the cupboard with her back twisted and on a slippery floor. Lisa's Pogo never did stairs or jumped off and on the furniture and his disc ruptured in bed. There is no real evidence that activities like jumping affect the discs but it is commonly advised not to let doxies do that. esp. jumping down and going down stairs. Also don't let them dangle when picking them up-always support their rear end. You would think that being overweight would be really bad for their backs but that hasn't really been proven. To me it seems as if extra weight pulling down on their backs all the time would be bad...but slender dogs go down as much as the fat ones. although being overweight is bad for them in so many ways.
The thing that confuses me is that all the exercises that dogs can do to strengthen their core and stomach muscles are things they say not to let doxies do..like sitting up or jumping or standing on their hind legs. to me it seems that strong muscles would support the back more. You can read a whole lot about all this on dodger's list...they have a ton of files and reports and research on just about every aspect of it.

Linus · #3 10-27-2010, 10:26 PM

Simple calcification is genetic, and somewhat normal in long backed dogs. Calcifications do not always lead to full blown IVDD, however, some precautions should be taken.

Bailey has two calcifications, and I made the choice to pull him out of agility because of it. However, a very trusted friend who has had hundreds of doxies through her house due to fostering, said that it wasn't necessary to do so.

As far as treatment, I think the only way is to be cautious.

Oops! Amy and I were posting at the same time!

areese · #4 10-27-2010, 10:36 PM

I did forget about one preventative/treatment procedure. It's called laser disc ablation. They use an electrified needle to sorta zap the disc material so they can't rupture. They can't do the total spine...I think they can't do the cervical discs but I'm not sure on all the details. It's only done in Oklahoma, texas, and illinois vet schools as far as I know. As far as effectiveness...hasn't been around long enough or done to enough dogs to really be proven to be totally effective but the results so far are supposed to be good. A few dogs on dodger's list have had it done due to the fact they had multiple ruptures and calcifications on their spines. They are doing well but I would think it would take some years to know for sure.

Alex's Mom · #5 10-28-2010, 07:51 AM

I seem to remember something about steroid use in large doses causing issues with bone mass too, David, but I could be misremembering.

From my understanding of when Maxe went down, calcified disks are not bad necessarily, although they do tend to lead to arthritis of the spine; it's when the disks rupture i.e., aren't calcified, that problems happen. The other thing I learned from recent dealings with Wendal's mobility, is that calicified disks tend to lead to spondyloses, or bone spurs, on the spine, and these can be highly problematic. Alex actually had a number on her back and hips, which was why she had chiro weekly that last year of her life. I've always said that Laura kept her walking long after she could have otherwise. Wendal has 3 calcified disks mid-back, and spondyloses, and that's not helping his fractured pelvis issues. Chiro again. I'm wondering if Dumbledore's weakness was in due part to the spondyloses? Don't know. Interesting, though!

Amy, a very very wise old vet told me when Maxe went down, said that dogs that are "loosy goosy" (in his words

) i.e., really flexible, are the ones that tend to go down. Those with denser, muscular, inflexible bodies (like Alex...she couldn't even scratch her own ears, or, happily, lick her bum

, she was so inflexible) are much less likely to have problems. Probably because there isn't so much movement in the spine?

Anyway, this seems to hold true from vets I've talked to about it.

Lisa · #6 10-28-2010, 08:03 AM

**Off topic alert** I just wanted to say that Pogo never ever did stairs, he did jump on and off the couch, which is why we no longer have a couch. I know IVDD is genetic, but my not enforcing his using a ramp on and off the couch is what caused him to go down. Pogo actually blew his disk, it wasn't a slower leak of material, it had to be trauma based.

areese · #7 10-28-2010, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa

**Off topic alert** I just wanted to say that Pogo never ever did stairs, he did jump on and off the couch, which is why we no longer have a couch. I know IVDD is genetic, but my not enforcing his using a ramp on and off the couch is what caused him to go down. Pogo actually blew his disk, it wasn't a slower leak of material, it had to be trauma based.

Our neurologist said that if they are going to rupture, they will. Discs have ruptured when dogs turn around in bed. From reading on dodger's, dogs have had catastrophic ruptures without any trauma. maybe it depends on how brittle the discs are... Laika had a slow leak..maybe her disc wasn't as brittle.
I'm interested in the "loosey goosey" theory. Laika has always had a wiggle in her walk...her rear sways back and forth. While Owen is more all of one piece, if that makes sense. he is flexible (have to clean the peen of course) but when he moves it is different than Laika.

Lisa · #8 10-28-2010, 09:28 AM

:faint: if the "loosey goosey" theory is correct, I am going to have a serious P'nut issue. She is in constant wiggle motion. She has never been on stairs or a couch for 2 of her 3 years, so if she does go down, there might be some validity to that theory.

I totally know what you mean about the different walks. Pixel's is different from Pogo's.

Linus · #9 10-28-2010, 01:09 PM

Interesting about the different walks. Bailey is like Owen, he's flexible, but he doesn't wiggle when he walks, he is very much one piece. Hmmm....I hope there's validity to that theory too!

areese · #10 10-28-2010, 01:15 PM

Now Owey is very wriggly like Pnut and can bend himself every which way but for whatever reason, he seems stronger and more stable than Laika. he can sit up (as you know) with his back so straight you could use a level on it. he can hover with his butt an inch from the ground like that too-all of which takes a great deal of core strength. And when he walks/trots/runs, it's different than Laika. He runs more like a terrier without the rocking gait of a doxie like Laika. No hip wriggles at all. he's going on 9 with no problems so...I just don't think he is going to (knock on wood)